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Further Than Space:
An Introduction
Interviewer: Liam Williams
Interviewee: VGEERA
Location(s): Leeds, United Kingdom — Charleston, SC, United States
Date: July 23rd, 2025
VGEERA’s formation is all about space. Creating it for artists of varying skill level and practices, putting Charleston on the map as a hotspot for creativity and making provocative art that vacates the intangible spaces in spectator's minds. This conversation is in many ways one about what outlines spaces — boundaries. The ones being broken by the creation of the collective, the ones that the collective seek to break and the ones that they plan to utilise as tools for innovation instead of seeing as a limiting factor. This is also an introduction, a tone setter for the collective. That tone is one of ambition, community and optimism that I struggled to shake off for hours after this conversation was over.
(Members: Abrien Millington, Adair Thomas, Elijah Winfield, Esante-Joy Mcintyre, and Jonathan Ruiz were in-person in a conference-room in Charleston, while I was on a call with them.)
Is everyone with you?
ew:
Yeah! Everybody here. It’s me, Abrien— you know what? What we can do is— everybody, at the table, introduce yourselves.
I’mma start it off: uh — my name is Elijah Winfield. Filmmaker, artist, all that — leader of [VGEERA].
ej:
Hi! I’m Esante-Joy Mcintyre. Um, I’m a poet. I’m really into administrative type of work. I do a lot of different things — creative direction, a lot of strategizing, branding, and — yeah. I’m excited to be here.
am:
I’m Abrien-uh-Millington. Um — photography, y’know?
jr:
I’m Jonathan. I’m a filmmaker and animator… Yeah.
ad:
My name’s Adair. You can call me AD. I’m a designer, photographer, and overall, an artist.
ew:
That’s everybody.
(Members [Vincent Melenzio] and [Diego Francis Garcia] were absent at this time.)
l:
Okay! Yeah…
For those of you that don’t know me, I’m Liam. I’ve done a lot with Elijah for PAGE2FRAME over the years, and he asked me to interview you guys...
My first question — some of these are pretty general questions, so anyone feel free to jump in: What would having a collective like this have meant to you when you were first starting out on your artistic journey?
ew:
Who wanna go first?
ej:
I think it should be you.
jr:
You the leader, bro.
ew:
Oh, word? [laughs] Okay! Well, first and foremost, [Liam] isn’t really big-upping himself — bro Liam has done-like hella shit for PAGE2FRAME [as an editor]. I just want y’all to know this is a good interviewer we got right here; I got the best from P2F.
ej:
Liam, we appreciate you, bro!
ew:
…So shout-out you!
l:
Appreciate that, man.
ew:
Alright-uh-next… I don’t know. I mean — when I was just starting out, I was about [16 or 17 years old], I think. Compared to now, I was definitely a lot more standoffish, and I was [artistically] only fuckin’ with niggas I was super-close with, you know? Like — grew up with, you-know-I’m-sayin’? And, I had a much bigger ego than I do now. I still have an ego, but it was much bigger then. I thought I was better than e’rrybody.
It would’ve been nice to have that sense of community, especially seeing how it’s playin’ out now, for me
[regarding this collective].
ej:
For me, I consider myself a jack-of-all-trades when it comes to the [activities] I dabble in. Being able to be flexible [with my creative expression] — I think having a collective of people who are just passionate about what they’re doing would’ve definitely expanded my network. Not just creating [for the sake] of views but genuinely finding community [within] sharing the art itself— I think for me just being able to see that people are doing their own things in different mediums…
[laughs] Why are y’all laughing?
[Group laughter]
ew:
[chuckling] His shit was loud as fuck.
(Abrien was taking a photo on his film camera.)
ej:
Oh, okay…
…To see that people are doing so many different things, in different mediums would’ve allowed me to network with them and also come into [my own form] as a creative.
l:
Yeah..!
There’s a lot of versatility in this collective — You have filmmakers, poets, photographers... One of the things I liked that you mentioned [to me, earlier] was that you wanted to sort-of push each other and build friendly competition — how do you plan on ‘pushing’ each other and helping each other, as artists?
jr:
I think through collaboration. Since we’re a collective with a whole bunch of different traits— I think whatever corresponds with the project that we’re trying to push out [at that time]— growing closer and trying to understand how [the next person] operates. Everybody [offers] something different, and so it allows us to [learn from each other] — widens our horizons and pushes [VGEERA] to higher levels, in my opinion.
ej:
To piggyback off what he said — iron sharpens iron, at the end of the day. Also, when you’re in a collective, it allows [everybody involved] to better understand the work, itself. When Elijah and I first talked about starting VGEERA — the idea of holding ourselves to a certain standard— you can always create whatever you please in whatever medium, but when that standard is set I think that’s when you really allow yourself to create great [art]. That’s what I’m really excited about.
l:
I believe that actually speaks to a certain rawness and authenticity that I think is a big part of what you guys are doing. The artistic integrity and the idea of imperfection — the willingness to try and give the artist room to fail and develop and experiment — that seems to be [very important to you all].
ew:
Absolutely, you know? One of the things we emphasize within our creative philosophy is the idea of ‘imperfection’ — which naturally consists of— not necessarily failing, but still [having the opportunity to retry]. Building off of what you’ve done already. That’s the game of progression. You get more and more comfortable with communicating through your art form.
l:
Cool — cool…
Does anyone else want to jump in and talk about how important imperfection is to their personal artistic process?
ad:
Oh-yeah — man. My first interactions with art and my entire fascination with art are based on flaws.
ew:
Yo, Liam! One second, bro…
(At this point, we had taken a quick break while Elijah was figuring out a way to conference Diego into our call.)
jr:
[rapping the lyrics to Kendrick Lamar’s Pray For Me]:
…The poor run with smoke lungs and Scarface. Who need a hero—
ew:
We about to start, by the way.
jr:
Oh. My fault.
[Abrien laughs]
ew:
Diego just joined!
l:
What’s up?
d:
It took me a while to figure everything out, but we're good now. How’re y’all doing?
ej:
Hi, Diego!
ew:
Everybody say hi to Diego! [chuckles]
am, ad, jr:
Yo!/What’s up, Diego?/Hey.
ew:
A’ight, bet, Liam, we straight now.
l:
Just picking up where we left off — I want to talk about working within constraints. I know a [movement] you’re inspired by is the Dogme 95 period of filmmaking and how they kind of used rules to their advantage, in a way. How do you all ensure that you work within certain constraints while still being ambitious, creatively?
ew:
What’s important, in my opinion, is understanding that constraints don’t have to be so restrictive if you don’t see them that way. For example, if I were creating an experimental film, I could make it [however I wanted]. Look at Blue by Derek Jarman. I even think [in some cases] constraints allow you to access more of your brain, creatively — using more brainpower than what you maybe would have if you had everything at your disposal instead.
l:
100% agree…
Another thing I wanted to talk about — how do you guys think you’re going to impose yourselves regarding your physical presence? Obviously, there are [platforms] everywhere if you think digitally, with social media and whatnot, but there seems to be a real emphasis on [being there] within your local community, so how do you plan on actually doing that?
ew:
Anybody wanna jump in?
jr:
Can you repeat the question? Sorry.
l:
Yeah-definitely! There’s a difference between having a sort-of presence on social media and actually being involved within your local community — hosting physical events and just being out there, in person, so I was wondering, how do you guys plan to do that?
ej:
I think one small thing with Charleston being the place that it is— I don’t think Charleston’s lacking the idea of creatives at all. This may not be the answer you’re looking for, but I think it’s about fueling people in a way that they kind of just gravitate towards [different events and projects] — they actually resonate with the art that’s being created and displayed. I think that’s important. In terms of building local community, I think Charleston is a very hungry place— or maybe that’s not the word— eager? I don’t know. But the people want a space, for them, to be held in that way. When I’ve seen other [artistic groups] in Charleston in the past, whether they had longevity or not, it was impactful because [the feeling of] wanting to connect with the next creative or artist will never go away, especially here. Our culture alone is inspired by the work that we do.
jr:
To add on to what she’s saying — the [feeling] of community is gonna be what really pulls people together. The way I see it, the world is naturally attracted to anything involving art. Almost everything we see is literally art — everything that we have. [With this] community already being there [in Charleston] and us hosting different events or spaces, it can bring even people who aren’t artists, just people who want to appreciate what’s going on — “I can come to this spot and have that be like a real safe space.” We can get people out of their own shell to get them into their own journey, whether [their journey] is photography, film, or whatever. This is my first time even being [in Charleston] — I’m not even from here, and I can feel it, you know what I’m sayin’?
ew:
Nah-but let me talk to these niggas, though — hol’ on…
Peep… The difference is — with this area — Charleston, and surrounding areas like Mount Pleasant, Summerville, West Ashley, and whatnot — in comparison to areas like Brooklyn, Atlanta, or wherever else — is that this is such a more tight-knit place. Everybody that Esante knows [from here], I know like half of those people, at least creatively. And everybody that Abrien knows, I know those people, and so on…
The thing about building community is you gotta show people you gon’ be there. You gotta show ‘em that you true to what your word is. We have a lot of people that are from here, that like to build things here, and then they leave off to Charlotte-or-Atlanta-or-wherever else. I don’t plan on doing that. I plan on dying here. So, for me, I believe if you want recognition in your community as a leader or staple, then you gotta be a part of that community consistently.
ej:
I think that’s a great point. Being someone born and raised in Charleston, I’m seeing this place become more of a bigger city. [chuckles] You can’t even go down the [Ravenel Bridge] anymore without seeing so much traffic. Like Elijah said, we know people that will go to these other cities— Charlotte is really-like up the road, for real. They’ll go there to build connections and portfolio but they’re from here. That inspiration [they brought to where they are now] came from here. Our culture, from the Gullah-Geechee roots to our architecture and infrastructure— Charleston is deserving of the title of a home; you can thrive here.
am:
Honestly-bro-like…
In high school, when I was just getting started [creatively], and even when I was playing basketball for my school — as I got older, I started to realize South Carolina, as a whole, doesn’t get much love. Whether it be creatively or athletically— bro, especially the Lowcountry. Like up [in the Midlands and Upstate of South Carolina], you have familiar faces like
the Ja Morant’s and the PG RA’s… But, then you get to the Lowcountry, and we’re just overlooked. I wasn’t born in Charleston, but I’ve lived here since, like, 2012. I’ve met some pretty special, remarkable people that are from this city. They have all the resources and tools, but they’re just not getting put out there. This collective could really be one of the first steps to bringing more light to these types of people, being a support system for them. Every artist I’ve met around here is open to showing love to one another. Like — I got homeboys that make music and help each other out. There’s no envy or jealousy; everybody from here wants to put Charleston on the map, so to speak.
l:
When you’re in a city that isn’t perhaps— that doesn’t celebrate art as much as a New York-or-Chicago-or-London or wherever — I think artistic acts can feel that much more defiant or rebellious and can [be a magnet] for people who want to go against the status quo, but it can also be intimidating…
How do you create an environment that’s welcoming to aspiring artists — people who aren’t as sure of themselves, or it’s more unorthodox for them to step into certain creative fields?
ew:
You teach people, you know? Whether that’s literally, through lectures or panels or whatever, or by example. You teach people. One of the biggest things [for VGEERA] is to teach. When people hear the term “Be who you are,” they think that means they have to be different, and I don’t think that’s what that means. Being who you are is just— however you express yourself [as a creative] is just naturally, totally who you are. If that’s a very simple expression, then it is, and if it’s a more complex way of doing so, then it is; it’s not forcing yourself to be different based on whoever sees whatever. I think criticism is also a big part of teaching. Not shutting somebody down or telling them, “Yo shit was some trash,” which, regardless if it was trash or not, no disrespect to whoever out there, you should critique them fairly because that’s how they improve or become more comfortable within themselves and progress as artists.
ej:
Even-like pioneering. For example, there are not a lot of filmmakers in Charleston, and even if there are, they’re not really displaying it, you know? I’m a firm believer in do fast-fail fast. With a collective, even if you’re failing and it’s embarrassing in some ways, there are people to [bring you up] and help you understand things better. You can lean on them.
ad:
Yeah-man. It’s like… inspiration and pioneering — I like the sound of both of those [points]. For me, I’m usually inspired by badass shit, y’know? It’s rebellious, and rebellion inspires people, y’know? Groups who… Yeah, I’mma just stop there [chuckles].
ew/l/jr/am/ej/d:
Nah! You was cooking, though!/No-no! You can keep going…/Yeah — continue bro, for real/You was cookin’, bro/No...!
ad:
[laughs] My bad…
l:
No — totally! When you join something like a collective, you attach your name to that. You embody those values…
It’s really beautiful that you guys stepped forward and you want to show people that this can be done…
We’ve kind of covered everything I wanted to go over, but I wanted to ask you guys: if everything turns out the way you want it to, what do you think is the maximum potential of [VGEERA]? Where do you want it to be?
ew:
JR! What’chu think the maximum potential of the collective is?
jr:
The maximum potential?
ew:
Yeah...!
jr:
We don’t have a ceiling.
ew:
I was gonna say the same thing!
jr:
Yeah, we don’t have a ceiling, bro. We can take this shit further than space. I’m not joking.
d:
It’ll go to Mars eventually.
ew:
Oh shit! I forgot Diego was here! [laughs]
ej:
Okay, guys— sorry to take over, Liam…
Let’s talk tangibly. What does [further than space] mean?
ew:
Shit that we can actually see, right?
ej:
Tangible! Yes.
ew:
We can make it to where people start moving here. Instead of people feeling like they gotta leave for their careers to be fulfilled, we can make people wanna stay or leave wherever they’re from to come here…
Bro (to Liam), we got two films on the way; official starting-off projects. We got my dog, JR — his short film (Hero The Epic - The Ban) and then we also got my short film (Rocket Fuel 001: If You Try and Fall, I’ll Save You). You seen [the private link] I sent you?
l:
I’ve seen it! I really loved [Rocket Fuel]. It kind of felt like a meditation on the imperfections of your life at the time. I thought it was a really nice blend of different artistic approaches and methods. To me, that film really encapsulates
[the direction] of [VGEERA].
ej:
(to Abrien, AD, JR, Diego) Have y’all watched it?
jr:
I haven’t yet.
ej:
That shit was hard!
ew:
I ain’t send the link to [JR or Abrien yet]. My bad, I gotta show y’all.
d:
I’m not saying this to kiss ass here — it’s genuinely very, very good. I’m in love with it.
ej:
Best work to date.
ew:
[sighs] Ah, what can I say?
ej:
Oh, God… Here go that Leo shit.
ad:
Sonically, that shit was touching, bro.
ew:
(to Abrien) First film in like three years, bro.
am:
With reviews like that!? Might be the best work, then.
ew:
You know what I do!
l:
I’m never gonna say it’s your best work because I know you can go further.
ew:
Word!
d:
[laughs] Even if it’s the best film you’ve ever seen — just to fuck with him!
l:
Just to drive you nuts...!